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Interview

Sara Juli: The Money Conversation

1. Can you tell me about the origin of the piece?

The piece premiered at PS122, same year I got married. Leading up the premiere, my current husband and I were discussing what combining our finances. We had very different approaches to money which lead to very heated conversations. I was having hot flushes, blood pressure rising- absolute anxiety. I realized quickly that money was making me really uncomfortable. I decided I had to re-assess my relationship with money for the sake of my marriage and myself. This ties into the ethos of my work, in which I take personal ideas and bring them to the public forum as a way to overpass them. It became clear I needed to make a dance about money.

The second step was how do I challenge myself? What was the craziest step for me to go to in order to re-assess? The idea was to take my entire savings account, at that time $5000, and give them to an audience during a performance, and let them take it. How would I deal with that? What would happen if I let it all go? What I understood intellectually is I would still wake up the next day and would still have my life, my husband, my house, and I would be ok. I decided to put that to the test, and go to that place of total fear and loss, and how that would manifest itself in my own re-evaluation of money. I’ve been performing the piece internationally for over four years now.

2. There’s a strong power relationship developing in the piece, and there’s plenty of vulnerability on your side, particularly as these are your life savings. What’s the transformation that occurs during the show? And is it different every time?

Money is powerful and complicated. I mean so far I’ve done at least 33-35 performances of it. In one regard, it’s ritual, but the ritual, everytime I feel the exact same emotion, which is sheer fear, which reminds me that I have to perform the piece. It’s an interesting cycle for myself, in which i’ve learnt it’s important for people to watch because of the issues that come out. If i lose all the money, i can’t perform the show. The greater loss for me now is not the money, but the show. I’m gratified and feel so grateful by this international money conversation that I’ve been having and would love to continue as long as the interest is there. I’m always wondering if this will be the last show.

3. Have you lost significant amount of money?

Yes, Melbourne $1200, for starters. At the end of the show I always offer the balance of what’s left to someone, it’s usually around $1300. In Melbourne I gave it to an elderly woman, and as it’s all split between $20, $50 and $100 bills, she returned everything else but the $100 notes. When you’re leaving, there;s the opportunity to return the money to The Money Box by the exit. Because all eyes were on her, she did the act of putting the money in but kept a significant amount. I’ve lost around $300 each night in Auckland during five shows. People also give money, which isn’t at all part of the show- I never mention you reaching it into your pocket, but I find it fascinating that some people feel that urge. Is it because they feel sorry for me, because they think I’m poor? It’s interesting what the sum means in different contexts. Sometimes I get paid to perform, so I have put some of my own money for fees in the show to bring the balance back up so i can continue to perform it. At Chelsea Theatre I lost $350 each night. If I lose money in the end, I’ll only replace it at the end of the run. Each tour starts with $5000, but I never replenish half-way, partly because I usually don’t have it, but also because that is an integral part of the show. I do feel confortable making my fee a little less and putting a couple of hundred back in, but it’s not always straightforward.

4. Can you tell me a little bit about the show?

It’s a solo piece. In London we ran around an hour and fifteen minutes, because of such an awesome audience. I use movement, test and sound, sometimes song and voice and audience participation and humour throughout the piece. Throughout the course of the evening I creatively give away the money, and bow and leave. Each audience member who has received money can take it or return it- I have genuinely given that money to them, but it’s under the agreement that these are my actual life’s savings. They chose to return it or not. It’s abstract- my background is in modern dance, so the movement is rooted in improvisation and my own vernacular that I’ve been developing over the last ten years. I take the familiar and make it abstract and the other way around.

5. How did you approach devising the piece?

I came up with the language, and my husband, who is the director, created the arch of the show. It’s broken into three sections- $20, $50 and $100 -and the content repeats while the ante is upped. There’s a fourth sections, the conclusion. Whilst performing it in Chelsea, I was reminded it’s short, sweet and says exactly what I want it to say- it leaves you with enough, because you have no choice except to think about your relationship to money, and I love that. Someone mentioned after the show how amazing it was for everyone in the lobby to be buzzing around the topic. My husband Chris and I really accomplished what we set out to do.

6. How did the piece change you?

I abstracted it because that’s part of the oeuvre- I like to perform the obvious with a twist, that’s my own aesthetic. For Chris and I, it’s a personal topic, but this is my work. Over the course of the years I understood the universality of the emotions that I feel. Chris is Armanian and I’m Jewish, so I’ve done a religious dance. I’ve also done a young angry dance, and angry naked dance, dance about sharing the past- I mean everyone has the same issues that they’re working on, so by making them public, it reminded me I’m not alone, we are all working through this. So many people come to me after my shows, saying that I’ve read the diary, and I take that to be the highest compliment. It’s a reminder that we’re all the same, and we can learn from each other, so there doesn’t need to feel isolated because your problem is only your problem. Art if perfect for coming out of your bubble. I’m blessed to have a vocabulary to share, and i’m thrilled to begin that discussion with people if it can become meaningful for them.

7. How did you deal with the inherent socio-political dimension of money?

What’s been fascinating is how a whole dialogue has developed around the piece which I never created. I created a simple thought-provoking conference on my relation to money. I performed it in front of a New York audience and the press went nuts, and they really created something around it. Audiences responded and created something around it. I was then fortunately booked to tour it abroad, and it became something else, took on another layer of meaning which was socio-political, but I had no idea it would grow so fast. ‘White Woman rolls in Cash’ as the press put it. I performed it in Russia, where US dollars are a currency of the black market, and suddenly there I am a NY city woman with her US cash, so the piece takes another meaning which I didn’t anticipate it. Internationally it was fascinating, so many people have thoughts, opinions on it, I love the energy it brings. It took a life on its own, and then some. It’s been successful beyond my wildest dreams in many different ways.

I have this fascinating anecdote from Australia actually. One night I gave the final amount to this Albanian woman, which I wasn’t aware of at the time, and I go backstage. Chris stands by the Money Box to answer questions, but the only thing he says is ‘it’s your choice, it’s up to you’. He doesn’t add any other pressure outside his physical presence. This woman walks up to the box and says she hasn’t seen her mother back home in over ten years, she can’t afford to go see her. This is the right amount of money for her to pay for a plane ticket home. She breaks down in tears, she says to Chris ‘I hate you, I hate you’, handing the money back to Chris. She went to the corner and completely broke down. That’s a great example of the piece taking on this whole life and meaning. When I created this in a small studio in NY City I had no idea that I would meet this old woman who can’t go see her mother, and suddenly, that’s my fault. I find that fascinating.

8. Where does humour fit into your work?

At an early stage in my career I discovered I’m a funny performer. All my pieces are in the same vein, so when she started to perform, I made this dance and performed it and people laughed with me or at me, I’m not sure. And then in the following performances I continued to make people laugh. I began to expect it, but understood the trap- don’t try to make people laugh. Artistically that’s just a bomb waiting to explode. I make what I want to make, I’ve come to understand my own performance qualities that when I get in front of the audience and switch is flicked, and I’ve got an energy that makes people giggle. I really enjoy it, and learnt that humour is a portal to the truth. If people are able to laugh at you or with you, and there is a distinction, if they can laugh at this woman making an asshole of herself, then I open up a window so they can take a look at themselves. Humour is an amazing tool if it’s done properly.

9. What does money mean to you now that you’ve been performing the piece for so long?

I think I’ve gotten a lot better but there’s a lot more work to be put in it. I remember when Chris and I first started dating, we’d been together for several years and for some reason I lent him $20, and asked for it back the following week. He was surprised, he wasn’t planning on paying me back because that’s part of the relationship, and we got into a massive argument. That’s where I was, I was counting the ins and outs. I was in a place that was not healthy for me, or for my best friend, my partner. That’s a good reminder for me. I’ve since opened a new savings account, since now there’s the savings account which is specifically for this show. When my savings account drops down to a certain amount, I start getting tense again still. I run my own fundraising consultant business, helping people raise money, which is hilarious in connection to this piece- but I can intellectualize it better. I have recently found some new ways to refresh the performance to re-engage a lot of the emotion in the piece so I’m really present.

10. Do you think there’s an emotion level to money that’s never going to change?

Yes, fear, it’s always going to be fear, it’s kind of how the world functions with it. It doesn’t mean anything if you don’t fear losing it, unless you’re financially independent, which most people aren’t. There’s a fine line between you and the person who are living on the street, and people who have unfortunately been affected by the financial crisis will really understand that.

11. And the economic crisis in relation to your piece?

I’m performing the same piece, but there’s the event of the piece, the energy around it and the dialogue after the piece. That energy has become an important part of the piece, since it lives outside of the theatre, there’s a community around it. It’s been an interesting add on or shift of how the piece is received and how the conversation grows.

12. How has your work developed due to the piece, and in light of your many strands of work?

What i’ve come to understand is that the vein I need to stay within and grow is the psychology of money, which is something I’m fascinated about. Asking people to donate to a cause they’re passionate about, or performing this piece, it’s all about psychology, and is nuanced and emotion based. Either giving my money during the show or asking people to donate money for causes- it’s the same things for me. You learn about yourself through the anxiety and intrigue and all the emotions that come up when you’re dealing with money. I’m constantly presented with different attitudes to donating money or taking it, and that’s endlessly fascinating to me.

Thank you very much for your time Sara.

Tagged: Chelsea Theatre, Live Art, Sacred Festival, Sarah Juli